Talk:Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)

Color Change

The party is no longer green, along with the logo. They are only this colour on the English website, which doesn't seem to have been improved in a long time, as the Japanese website's predominant colours are black and red. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 12:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for this, please? I just checked the Japanese version of this article, and green is still used in the infobox there. Μαρκος Δ 21:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The Japanese website of the LDP is now a pinkish-red, but not all pages of various lang. Wikipedias have been updated, neither has LDP's English too. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Political party colors aren't as crystalized as in the UK. The LDP uses different colors in election campaigns constantly. You shouldn't keep changing it to red. It causes mass confusion. 沁水湾 (talk) 18:02, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

As I said, please provide a source that shows that the party is still officially green. If it were for only campaigns then shouldn't Komeito be yellow, and not the pink it is now? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 18:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Even then, Komeito wasn't yellow, nor New Komeito, which the page in Japanese uses as a colour template, as NKP was blue. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 18:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

The goal is interlegibility. The new Komeito post Shinshinto is a different party in many ways comparing to the historical Komeito: its long term coalition with the LDP & shift towards conservatism. In fact for a time its official name was the "NKP". This justify separate wiki pages & therefore, colors.

As I said party colors, especially for the LDP, was never crystalized. The LDP have used both red & green before, and have continued to do so since. Consistency & readability was the key (in stead of what you personally believe should be the case). It emphasize different colors in individual election campaigns from elections to elections. If you really insist on it. Change the color of every elections to match the LDP's at the time branding.

The short lived splinter groups of a dozen or even less than five MPs/councilors shouldn't be listed alongside the Liberal & Democratic parties of (which, as I told you before, represent the 保守本流&保守傍流 factions of the LDP). These small splinter groups & their merger with the LDP has more to do with Japan's campaign public finance laws. As I stated before, it's like listing the "Connecticut for Lieberman Party" alongside "Jacksonian Democratic Republicans" as the groups that merged into the US Democrats.

Please stop. 沁水湾 (talk) 18:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

1. I know that already.
2. As I said, please provide a source. Even for one before 2017 for the red.
3. Fine.

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 18:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I was going to ask you to change the colour of the LDP in the maps where they use red, i.e. 2019 and 2022. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I won't. Please stop your obsession with colors. Thanks 沁水湾 (talk) 18:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Revisiting position

I think we should change it to "Centre-right to right-wing" and then add a note. Liberal conservative/right-libertarian parties are almost always centre-right, but may have other factions (for examples the page about the Liberal Democrats (an Australian libertarian party) lists "Centre-right to right-wing" as its position). Any thoughts? Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 10:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I am absolutely against your suggestion. Japan has a weak Western liberal/libertarian culture, and the LDPJ is traditionalistic and nationalistic. In addition, there is clearly an ultranationalist faction in the party, and Fumio Kishida, the current leader, also belongs to the far-right Nippon Kaigi. The political position of the LDPJ must be "Right-wing", not "Centre-right to right-wing". Imagine if the Germans did the way the LDPJ insulted war crime victims in WW2. Rather, in South Korea, the LDPJ itself is recognized as a far-right fascist party. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:33, 27 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

We call Holocaust deniers the far-right Nazis. The LDPJ is doing exactly that. Australia's mainstream right-wing nationalists also don't argue that there was no Holocaust itself. The LDPJ denies genocide and sexual slavery crimes against Koreans. The LDPJ is never centre-right. The LDPJ is close to neo-Nazi by Australian standards. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:41, 27 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No, Fumio Kishida belongs to the liberal conservative Kōchikai faction, which I would probably describe as "Centre-right to right-wing". I doubt he denies the Holocaust. On mainstream Australian standards I wouldn't describe it as a neo-Nazi party or even a fascist party. Right-wing populist, yes (in certain factions), but Nazi is a strong word. Shinzo Abe was from the right-wing populist faction you mentioned, however. Abe was obviously similar to Trump, but not similar to Hitler or Mussolini. Anyway, I don't know you can describe the party as neo-Nazi considering the party's past two leaders (Abe and Kishida) have strongly supported Israel (a Jewish-majority country created because of the Holocaust) and have even spoken with Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. I doubt Netanyahu (who is Jewish) would have spoken with them if they denied the Holocaust and supported Hitler. Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 07:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

He is not anti-Semitic, but he is clearly anti-Korean. (The relationship between Koreans and Japanese during World War II is the same as that between Jews and Germans.) The reason why I call the LDP a Nazi is that LDP politicians actively support nationalist historical revisionism for the war crimes they committed during World War II. Kishida tried to get rid of Germany's Statue of Peace. What German center-right politicians deny their war crimes? Kishida being a liberal means only relatively. He is a moderate conservative, not liberal conservative. The Holocaust I'm talking about is not the Holocaust of the Nazis, but the Asian Holocaust. At that time, Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire were the same fascist Axis powers. Above all, the decisive evidence that Kishida is only a relative moderate is that he belongs to the far-right group, Nippon Kaigi. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:52, 28 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

South Korea is Israel in Northeast Asia. While the majority of South Koreans oppose the revision of Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, Kishida supports the revision of Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution. Germany today does not inconvenience Israel's Jews. The Japanese are very threatening to the South Koreans. Although Kishida did not visit Yasukuni shrine, he sent a tribute to Yasukuni shrine. Yasukuni shrine is considered a Nazi monument in South Korea. In various ultranationalist projects conducted by the LDP, if you change Japanese to German and Korean to Jewish, it is a perfect neo-Nazi. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:03, 28 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Even Germany rarely criticizes Israel, and avoids diplomatic friction with Israel itself. Japan, where the LDP is in power, often causes friction with South Korea. I'm a South Korean, but I try to express it objectively. From a purely South Korean point of view, the LDP almost unilaterally afflicts South Korea. Many South Koreans see it as hypocritical for Western liberals to call Donald Trump a fascist and not call all LDP politicians fascists. Donald Trump doesn't openly glorify Nazi Germany, but most LDP politicians openly glorify the Japanese Empire. Fumio Kishida belongs to Nippon Kaigi, but Donald Trump was not affiliated with a similar far-right lobbying group. From the subjective standpoint of South Koreans, Donald Trump, the far-right Republican, appears to be a much more moderate conservative than Fumio Kishida, the self-proclaimed moderate of the LDP. No far-right in South Korean and Japanese supports the Sunshine Policy and condemns South Korean liberals' sympathy for North Korea. Donald Trump is rather a liberal (=Support for Sunshine Policy and human rights of Japanese sexual slavery victims) by South Korean standards and Fumio Kishida is a fascist (=Opposition to the Sunshine Policy and the Denialist of Japanese War crimes) by South Korean standards. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:12, 28 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The LDP is sometimes described as an ultranationalist. See Ultranationalism#Currently represented in national legislatures: No party on this list is centre-right. Many South Koreans point out that the way Germans treat Jews and Israel is so different from the way Japanese treat South Koreans. If anti-Semitism is far-right, anti-Korean racism is also far-right. See Anti-Korean sentiment in Japan#Post-war comparisons or links to Germany: As much as the Germans compensated the Jews, the Japanese should compensate the South Koreans, and just as Willy Brandt knelt down to Jewish victims, the Japanese prime minister should dogeza to South Korean war crime victims. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I think that the party is described in the article's infobox in a narrow way. The party is surely conservative, but it contains both nationalist and liberal elements. What about leaving only "conservatism"? Also, the party, the mainstream force of government in an established and mature democracy such as Japan, is more centre-right than right-wing. This said, I am not proposing "centre-right to right-wing" because I prefer to avoid composite positions in the infobox. --Checco (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no evidence that mainstream conservative parties in democracies are necessarily moderate. I rather suggest that the political position be changed to "Right-wing to far-right". The party is clearly anti-Korean racists, and we do not refer to the political position of the Bharatiya Janata Party and People Power Party (South Korea) as "Centre-right to right-wing". (India and South Korea is clearly a liberal democracy.) Poland's Law and Justice is much more moderate than the LDPJ. In particular, Nippon Kaigi is considered a far-right ultranationalist political organization in Japan, and since 2006, all Japanese prime ministers from the LDP have been affiliated with Nippon Kaigi. Real center-right parties like the CDU in Germany or the GOP in the United States are never described as ultranationalists. As of 2023, there are no liberals in the LDPJ. So, I therefore object to removing "Japanese nationalism" from infobox. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:14, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The Republicans have centre-right elements but are mostly right-wing. A better example would be Germany's CDU, the UK's Consetvatives Australia's Coalition and New Zealand's National Party. Overall I don't think everyone in the party hates Koreans, just as how I don't think the Republicans hate Muslims or LGBT people. Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 10:06, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Although not all politicians in the LDPJ explicitly detest Koreans, Japanese historical revisionism targeting Koreans is supported by almost all politicians in the LDPJ. In Germany, Holocaust denial itself is regarded as anti-Semitism. As of 2023, it is difficult to see any major LDPJ politicians who oppose historical revisionism for Japanese war crimes or insist on genuine apology and reflection. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure about the situation over there, but I still think labelling an entire party as "anti-XYZ" when it concerns a group of people, isn't good, with some obvious exceptions (e.g labelling Fraser Anning as Islamophobic). Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Almost all LDPJ politicians are not free from anti-Korean racism. I have not seen a single politician in the recent LDPJ mainstream against historical revisionism Mureungdowon (talk) 10:33, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Japan is a 'mature democracy'. The LDPJ and CDPJ support Japan's historical revisionism of war crimes. Germany's "centre-right" CDU is much more moderate in nationalist matters than Japan's "centre to centre-left" CDPJ. Germany and Japan were the same Axis powers during World War II. In Germany, mainstream conservatives do not support German nationalism. In Japan, except for a few socialists, most Japanese politicians support Japanese nationalism, especially the LDPJ, which is a very hard-line anti-Korean nationalist. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:22, 7 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I think this is worth a look: https://japantoday.com/category/politics/japan's-pm-tells-south-koreans-his-'heart-hurts'-over-pain-caused-by-occupation Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 10:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Kishida has been criticized in South Korea for not officially mentioning an apology. And Kishida is against the Statue of Peace. The reason why he expressed regret, not an apology, in front of Yoon Suk Yeol is that Yoon Suk Yeol has expressed its intention not to demand compensation for Korean victims of Japanese war crimes. Yoon Suk Yeol is accused of being a pro-Japanese fascist in South Korea. Surviving Korean victims are blaming Yoon and Kishida. Above all, Kishida does not admit to the fact that forced labor existed. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

This isn't the place to POV push about Japan-South Korea tensions. This longstanding controversy hangs over this bilateral relationship largely regardless of the ruling party and their place of parties on the political spectrum. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The denial of war crimes is not a matter of Japan-South Korea, but of fascism. In Germany, Holocaust denial itself is considered far-right. And I gave all the sources in the LDPJ article. And I also edited in detail about anti-Japanese racism in the Democratic Party of Korea#Controversy article in South Korea to be fair. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:04, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No, denial of sources of historic shame is not explicitly a far-right trait; denial of certain events tends to be conducted at the society level. For example, Turkish society and hence most political parties in Turkey tend to deny the Armenian genocide. Many European countries tend to downplay the horrors of colonialism and slavery. Rarely do these things boil down to the actions and/or agency of a single political party, and I very much doubt you can establish that here with reliable sources. The LDP is generally described as a party with quite a broad base that appeals to much of the political spectrum. See Brittanica. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:32, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The Japanese Empire was the Axis powers. The Axis crimes must be dealt with in a special way. Turkey's mainstream parties do not support Nazism or Japanese imperialism. The Armenian genocide in Turkey was during World War I, and it was not a matter for the Axis powers during World War II. Japan's denial of war crimes is not an Armenian genocide denial, but a Holocaust denial. Moreover, there are currently no survivors of the Armenian genocide, but there are still Japanese Military Sexual Slavery victims and Holocaust survivors. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:46, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinions, but I think this thread has reached its end. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Mainstream conservative parties in South Korea, Japan, Poland, and the United States are not moderate. South Korea's PPP, Japan's LDP, and Poland's PiS are usually called right-wing or [right-wing] nationalist. They are very different from ordinary center-rights such as Tory in UK and CDU in Germany. Mureungdowon (talk) 12:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Damn, that's too tempting ... I mean, the Tories have plenty of racist cunts in their ranks, and, as for the CDU, nowhere in Europe is there a stronger defender of the Israeli far right and Israeli apartheid. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Most right-wing parties the world over exist on a spectrum with both centre-right and far-right on their extreme wings. The art of being a right wing leader is balancing the competing interests of these. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:44, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The LDP hate Koreans, but Tory doesn't hate Indians. The CDU's absolute defense of Israel is because it has guilt about Jews. LDP feels NEVER guilty about Koreans. I don't think Israel is an apartheid regime. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:42, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't make any criticism of Israel. They passively support South Korea in the conflict between South Korea and Japan. Because Japan's behavior is really no different from Holocaust denial. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

What matters is the attitude to the Axis powers. Historical revisionism to this must be considered unconditionally far-right. Mureungdowon (talk) 14:36, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The LDP is not a WWII-era party; this is just anachronism. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

No, we call Holocaust deniers fascists or Nazis. In addition, the trade dispute between South Korea and Japan in 2019 also began with the issue of compensation for survivors of war crimes in the South Korea. Victims are hoping for a real apology and compensation from Japan before they die of old age. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Of course, Fatah, a Palestinian center-left, causes controversy with historical revisionism on the Holocaust, but historical revisionism on the Holocaust is subject to criminal punishment, at least in Germany. Japan was the three main Axis powers. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:32, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The Israeli people usually support South Korea in the conflict between South Korea and Japan. That's why the South Korean people like Israel, and South Korea and Israel signed an FTA. Anti-Zionists accuse the FTA of "alliance with murderers." But they don't blame Japan, unlike the Israeli people. Comparing Nakba to the Holocaust is anti-Semitism. However, Japanese war crimes are on par with the Holocaust. Germany and Japan were Axis powers, but Israel was not. On the contrary, Jews and Koreans were victims of the Axis powers of crime. Comparing Armenian genocide to Japanese war crimes is wrong. The Armenian genocide is not a crime committed by the Axis powers. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

When Abe visited Israel, Netanyahu served shoes with food. This is a serious insult to Japanese culture, so many South Koreans liked that Israel readily avenged Japan. The Israeli people are also very aware of Japanese historical revisionism. The Japanese government secretly criticizes Israel and sympathizes with the Palestinians. The DSA's support of the Palestinians may be pure. However, Japan's criticism of Israel is largely impure. The LDP is a fascist by German political standards, and German media mainly blame Japan for the conflict between South Korea and Japan. Abe boarded a fighter plane with 731 on it and paid tribute to Yasukuni shrine in memory of war criminals. Even the AfD doesn't do this in Germany. Therefore, from the perspective of the German people or the Israeli people, the conflict between South Korea and Japan is entirely Japan's responsibility. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:01, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

At least 50% ~ 90% of the Japanese people are neo-fascists in the context of German politics. See Anti-Korean sentiment in Japan#Post-war comparisons or links to Germany. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE :3 F4U (they/it) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Checco @Iskandar323 @Thiscouldbeauser @Mureungdowon

The article is too US-centric. I see no reason not to incorporate conservative liberalism into the ideology section. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

We are not talking about the "Ideology" section now, but the "Ideology" parameter in the infobox. In my view, "conservatism" would be quite enough, as it is an encompassing ideology describing the party's nature. This said, I have nothing against "conservative liberalism" and/or "liberal conservatism". --Checco (talk) 12:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Checco I meant the parameter, I misspelled. I am for adding conservative liberalism and/or liberal conservatism. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

"Conservatism" includes "liberal conservatism". Thus, I would either keep "conservatism" alone or replace it with "liberal conservatism". Also, I have no opposition on including "conservative liberalism", provided that reliable sources are produced. --Checco (talk) 16:28, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Description by sock user

Several IP users attempting to re-write inappropriate writing that has been deleted many times after it was written by a sock user. However, the writing has fake quotes from several sources. For example, the Kyunghyang Shinmun writes that Yoshihide Suga said, "The phrase 'forced to work' as recognized by the Japanese government, does not refer to forced labor as defined by the ILO, but to requisition." The Yonhap News writes that Fumio Kishida asked the German Chancellor to remove the comfort women statue. The Guardian writes that the Japan Times and the Yomiuri Shimbun have changed their terminology regarding World War II. The Hankyoreh writes that there are differences between Japan and South Korea on the detailed interpretation of the phrase "forced to work". Those sources never say that many members of the LDP are in denial about the war crimes committed by the Empire of Japan against the Korean people. The sock user is writing from a false quotation from the sources, synthesizing the information and then making his own interpretation.--SLIMHANNYA (talk) 13:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Retire the one party state line

It's lazy and shows a lack of understand of how politics in Japan have worked in the last 25 years. From 2018 and 2024, read:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/japanese-journal-of-political-science/article/electoral-incentives-policy-compromise-and-coalition-durability-japans-ldpkomeito-government-in-a-mixed-electoral-system/D153792B61853FAC9AF38A20E5076D32

And:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-east-asian-studies/article/between-appeasement-and-accommodation-komeitos-policy-influence-under-second-abe-administration/FE5174AC43FEB47774CEFAD0F876B478

All of that still applies today, even more so considering considering the bad polling Kishida and the party has gotten recently after the slush funds scandals last year and some of the by election loses it has had:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/04/29/japan/politics/ldp-by-elections-analysis/

Dominant party system would be a better term but even still I don't know how appropriate it would be to use it as that term seems more descriptive of the pre 1999 LDP that governed entirely on its own rather than the post 1999 LDP-Komeito coalition/election politics. WetGlass (talk) 10:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Reopening color change discussion

I think it's time to seriously consider changing the LDP's color. They have consistently switched to using red as their primary color in their branding in the past couple of years, and Japanese media now consistently uses red when displaying the LDP in electoral graphics etc.

The question then is what to do with the JCP's color. Japanese media now uses purple for the JCP so that is one option. Any thoughts?Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 01:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I would be open to this and it should be noted that both parties can be red. Maurnxiao (talk) 02:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)